Needless to say, Stavrakopoulou was under the impression that most British viewers had an in depth understanding of the Books of Kings and the Books of Samuel. Either that, or she was knowingly relying on the fact that the vast majority of her audience had never picked up a copy of the Bible in their lives. It's much easier to dupe the unsuspecting and unknowing, especially if they probably assume - as do so many modern Britons - that all Christians and Jews blindly accept Scripture as some sort of infallible historical or scientific document. The atheist Francesca Stavrakopoulou definitely seemed to have this prejudiced view of Christians and Jews. She also appeared to have an unwavering admiration for Muslims. Some might wonder whether this had anything to do with the fact that Stavrakopoulou lectures at the University of Exeter, which is now known for its pro-Islamic links, for its European Centre for Palestinian Studies, Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies (funded by the Saudi Prince Turki Al Faisal) and European Muslim Research Centre (funded by the Muslim Brotherhood)!
The premise of last Tuesday's The Bible's Buried Secrets was that King David probably didn't exist. If this was the case, argued Stavrakopoulou, then the modern state of Israel could be severely undermined! She suggested that the founding fathers of Israel used the story of King David merely to justify their re-settlement of Palestine, and therefore any archaeological evidence for the existence of David which had been discovered by Jewish archaeologists was questionable. At one point she even said that Jewish or Christian archaeologists dig "with a trowel in one hand and a Bible in the other"! Stavrakopoulou never for a moment thought that Muslim or atheist scholars might have ulterior motives or agendas - apparently, in BBC-land, these two groups are above any suspicion!
Francesca, who seemed more like an undergraduate coming across the works of Graf and Wellhousen for the first time than a serious academic, massively overstated the role of King David in the Biblical narratives. She kept referring to the "Davidic Empire", which according to her imagination resembled some sort of post-industrial mass-urbanised civilisation. But the society of King David's time that we find in the Hebrew Bible doesn't conform to this stereo-type of "empire" at all. Neither do the Biblical authors, or the sources they relied on, paint the united kingdom under David as some form of imperialist state - it was only the size of Wales for goodness' sake! In fact, my reading of the Books of Samuel point to an early Iron Age kingdom ruled over by tribal interests, containing a religiously motivated and mainly agrarian people who only wanted to have a king "to be like other nations". Dr Stavrakopoulou, though, reads the Biblical texts in such a way that she expects 10th century BCE Israel and Judah to somehow reflect the expansionist and city-state type empires of later civilizations - such as the Babylonians or Romans. The fact that she couldn't find the remains of many large or industrialised cities from 10th century Kingdom of Judah is not surprising - but for Francesca, this pointed to the non-eistence of King David and the utter unreliability of findings by Jewish or Christian archaeologists!
She also seemed highly dismissive of any archaeological evidence that pointed to the existence of King David from later periods, such as the 9th century BCE. Needless to say, Stavrakopoulou forgot to mention that there still remains a certain amount of confusion over Biblical dates, or that some scholars argue that some findings from the 10th and 9th centuries BCE could have co-existed. It is also important to point out that there only remains a day between one century and the next in some instances - for example, I am a person of both the 20th and 21st centuries, not one or the other. When we're dating remains and finds from the late Bronze and early Iron Ages, which - in places like Jerusalem - have been contaminated by other periods, then it is sometimes wise to err on the side of caution. We cannot be too specific in our dating, and more often than not one century cannot be divided from another along clearly defined lines.
Francesca Stavrakopoulou, in the manner of an 1890's source critic, was keen to assert that the Bible should not be treated as a text of any historical value - unless, of course, its historicity can be attested to by archaeology or independent historical documents from the same era. Of course, people of faith accept that Biblical writers weren't historians in the modern sense. It's well-known that they often wrote in order to highlight the theological implications found within their own oral or written historical sources. This doesn't mean, though, that the whole of Scripture is historically tainted or unreliable. In fact, most of the Hebrew Scriptures deal with the history of particular human societies that produced no other corroborating historical texts. Often, passages from the Bible are the only documents that cover the history of certain people from certain periods. Historical sources for the Roman caesars remain dubious enough, but they're sometimes the only pieces of evidence we have - and as useful as archaeology can be, it, too, has its severe limitations and is open to widely different interpretations. Stavrakopoulou, though, seemed to idolise archaeology, even placing it within that infallible modern category - "science".
Dr Stavrakopoulou also seemed to gloss over the fact that many aspects of the Bible's own narratives corroborate its reliability as a collection of various ancient historical sources. Scripture - in its various historical narratives - often contradicts itself, and the authors or editorial teams (for there were probably many working on various books at various times) that produced certain Biblical texts were more than willing to include conflicting documents or oral traditions next to each other (eg. someone called Elhanan, not David, is credited with the slaying of Goliath in 2 Samuel 21:19). In other words, the Bible contains several historical sources, along with their individual interpretations. The Bible, therefore, is not just one historical source - but, often, contains several different traditions. In that sense, it can often corroborate itself with as much validity as if that corroboration had been gained by another, more independent, source.
The Bible also contains lots of information which many would argue runs against its own editorial intent. Biblical authors did not write simplistic stories about goodies and baddies. Often, men like King David were depicted "warts and all". Facts about Solomon's tyrannical rule or David's murder of Uriah the Hittite (after impregnating the poor man's wife) seem to suggest that Biblical authors or editors were not afraid to depict the weaknesses even of their most heroic leaders. Stavrakopoulou, in her attempt to imply that the Bible depicts David as a brilliant Emperor who could do no wrong, failed to mention what the Bible actually says about him. Dr Stavrakopoulou, therefore seemed to be the one building straw men - not the Bible!
In fact, Stavrakopoulou also reinterpreted Scripture for her own ends by claiming that the Biblical authors described the Philistines (whom the Graeco-Romans called Palestines, or Palestinians) as "barbarians" - even though they did nothing of the sort. The First Book of Samuel describes them as technologically superior to the Israelites. They were a people to be feared and envied (eg. for their political systems which the Israelites wished to copy), even if the Biblical authors later questioned the theological validity of Philistine polytheism. In fact, throughout the various power struggles between David and King Saul - during which even the Bible itself isn't sure which one of them was the legitimate king - the former ends up fighting as a mercenary for the highly regarded Philistines! The modern pejorative word "philistine" actually dates from 1689, when a German Lutheran minister chastised his townspeople, calling them Philistines (i.e. "enemies") after they had formed an angry mob and murdered a student.
Although Francesca Stavrakopoulou was correct to point out the dangers of allowing one's research to be dominated by politics (theologically inspired, or not), she seemed unable to accept that others bar Jews and Christians can be motivated by self-interest. Even whilst narrating her documentary, Dr Stavrakopoulou herself seemed to be displaying an enormous amount of bias - especially towards the plight of the Palestinian people, whom she described as "Muslim" (totally ignoring the Christian Palestinians who have lived in the Holy Land for 2,000 years!). One aspect of Stavrakopoulou's lack of objectivity was displayed when she listed the various settlers that have lived in Jerusalem since the time of King David. According to what seemed to be her chronology, Christians settled after Arabs (which seemed to imply that Christians invaded Muslims). Of course, what she didn't say was that Arab Christians were living in Jerusalem 600 years before Muhammad founded his religion.
The Bible's Buried History smacked of a particular anti-Israeli prejudice which seems all too common amongst a certain type of person - often eager to prove their Islamophilia. At one point it really seemed as if Dr Francesca Stavrakopoulou actually believed that Biblical authors wrote the Two Books of Samuel to provide modern Israel with historical legitimacy! It was as if she thought the men who had written these historical books of the Bible were really foreseeing a time when the Jewish people would need to prove that the land of Israel and Judea had once been theirs. Seeing that its generally accepted that these Biblical writers wrote their texts during the Babylonian Exile, maybe Stavrakopoulou has a point - even if she's missed the real political reasons behind some parts of the Hebrew Bible. The authors were possibly trying to legitimise their return to post-Exilic Israel after captivity in Babylon - not the creation of some 20th century state!
Of course, those who watched The Bible's Buried History probably noticed that Francesca Stavrakopoulou overplayed the link between the modern state of Israel and Biblical history. Most, if not all, the founding fathers of Israel were known for their socialist and secularist ideals, not their religious observance. It could be argued that they were not overly concerned with trying to legitimise their new state by appealing to Scripture! It was - and is - given that the ancient Hebrew people, nowadays called the Jews, occupied the ancient land of Israel for many, many centuries before and after King David's time. It was Hadrian who first gave the land of Judea the name Palestine - after killing tens of thousands of Jews in one of the world's first acts of relentless genocide. Therefore, whether or not David ruled over a glorious empire the size of Wales has never been an issue for those who wish to ground modern Israel in ancient Hebraic history.
It would be interesting to see whether the BBC will commission a similar deconstruction of the Koran, which might prove that Muslims use their religious book to legitimise enforced colonisation. One imagines that they wouldn't ask a lecturer from Exeter to host the show, though - especially now that we know the University receives massive funding from the Muslim Brotherhood and the Saudi Royal Family. One also imagines that it would be difficult to get the BBC to agree to such a programme - mainly because there is no such thing as modern textual criticism of the Koran, but also because the BBC's head of religious programming, Aaqil Ahmed, is a practising Muslim.
......................................................................
Update 22/3/11: The Bible's Buried Secrets, episode 2
i) Why didn't Stavrakopoulou invite proper Jewish or Christian scholars to contribute to this programme? With all due respect, the Rabbi she interviewed as her "opposition" wasn't equipped to enter into a proper dialogue (reminds me of the time Richard Dawkins interviewed school children about Creationism, suggesting they were some kind of experts on the subject - talk about easy targets!)
ii) Has she not heard of the Christian Trinitarian concept of God - which explains passages such as "in our own likeness we shall create him", or "God said to my God", and which help explore the deeper and more mystical literature in the Jewish Scriptures?
iii) How is Mary the "Goddess of Heaven"? (Suggested at in one sentence towards the end of the episode).
iv) What's new? All that Stavrakopoulou covered in this evening's programme is openly available in the Bible. None of these things are "secrets", anyone who reads the Bible can read about El and Baal and the complex relationships that existed between these cults and the early monothesistic Hebrew culture. Also, these ideas have been raised and discussed amongst Biblical scholars for centuries - whereas scholars of the Koran still haven't applied modern criticism to their text.
v) Life isn't clear cut, and Jews and Christians know this. Our Scriptures don't try to hide the fact that cultures and societies affect each other - the Canaanites and the Israelites shared ideas, so what?
vi) Does Stavrakopoulou think that we never knew that El and Elohim are used as ancient names for God, one of which at least implies that monotheism is rooted in polytheism (Elohim is plural) - what's so astonishing about that? Does she not know that St Paul told the Greeks that the god they worshipped as the invisible one could be his God... In other words, God - as in the one God - could very easily have revealed himself to ancient polytheistic cultures amongst their deities.
vii) Yet again, no questioning of the Koran or Islam - in fact Stavrakopoulou was seen smiling broadly when it seemed that Muhammad's monotheism was purer that the Judeo-Christian (i.e. earlier) one - from which he got his ideas in the first place. Did she not know that Allah was an ancient pagan god amongst Arabic tribes, who happened to be the greatest (for Muhammad) and was therefore used as the ideal template for the one God?
Oy vey, this woman has some issues! Maybe that's why proper scholars don't appear on her programme?
48 comments:
I never watch religious documentaries on television as I tend to end up throwing the set out of the window!
Until Israel acknowledges Christ as the Messiah all their reliance on the Bible to justify the maltreatment of Palestinian Christians is as moribund as it is false.
The BBC does have an anti-Bible bias, but it is also ignorant (as are most Christians) because they tend to forget the Incarnation and Passion of Our Lord make the claim of the Israelis to the Holy land both nil and void.
A few years back we as a family bought rosaries made in Palestine by Christians, both as means to have a holy object made near the geographical location of Our Lord, and as a small way to support Palestinian Christians whose very existence is all but forgotten by Catholics and Christians here, in Europe and especially in America.
Their position is undermined by [right wing] false Bible reading that says the Israelis are still the 'chosen people' and by the [left wing] atheist militants who directly attack their Faith.
As Catholics our first loyalty should be to those members of the Church Militant, and in Israel/Palestine, that is the Palestinian Catholics (with possibly a small number of Jewish converts who have accepted Christ as the Messiah).
Don't think me OTT but I'd call your post a critical tour de force.
As soon as I read the synopsis of the programme and the bio of the presenter I knew it would be a waste of my time watching it, so I didn't waste my time. Correct me, but I thought both Arabs and Jews were/are semite.
Well, Ms Stavrakopoulou won't be out of an academic job any time soon. In fact, she's probably secured herself generous top-up funding.
I'm getting increasingly short-tempered at the BBC's obsession with "trendy" scholars. As long as they come up with the most outlandish theories - I think it's known as post-modern - they're guaranteed air time. It's a Humpty-Dumpty old world.
Do you remember the programme[s] presented by Jeremy[?] Bowen on the history of Our Lord a few years back? Prime Time BBC fodder full of inaccuracies and inconsistancies. It even repeated the lie of Our Lord being the illegitimate offspring of a Roman soldier. Imagine!
Such a shame a man with a Welsh name would frornt such utter garbage.
@ Webmaster Gareth
Yes, I do remember some programme by Jeremy Bowen (or Jeremy al-Bowen as some now call him!). It is a disgrace that these people think they can go around uttering blasphemies and lies like this.
In fact, I was going to write anther post today - but it's too late now - about the "Queering the Church" blog, which is written by one of the leading figures in the Soho Masses Pastoral Council. He suggested today (well, yesterday now) that St Patrick had a homosexual relationship with St Benignus of Armagh, when the latter was a teenage boy! He also went on to claim that Patrick worked as a male prostitute after escaping from Ireland and paid for his sea-crossing by "servicing the sailors". Disgusting! Sick, even!
I am enraged that the Church continues to sanction the Soho Masses, especially when one of its representatives spews such filth concerning one of our most beloved saints!
The Church has many enemies - unfortunately, as Pope Benedict XVI said, most of them seem to be insiders!
We bloggers need to do everything we can to right the wrongs that are being spread about the faith and its heroes... especially when other Catholics (or Welshmen!) are the ones that seem to be doing the most harm.
I offer a slightly different perspective at http://www.psephizo.com/?p=742 though I don't disagree with some of your criticisms...
The more your beliefs are challenged, the more you hang on to them?
Yes it was a naff programme and could have been done a whole lot better (where to start in describing...?).
All it illustrated to me is that you cannot look at something from more than a few decades previously and hope to understand it, because you are "tainted" with your experience from that date until the present. And context is everything.
I watched it and was surprised by the way she seemed so obsessed with the idea that unless David was exactly as described in the Bible in exactly 10th C BC, then somehow the whole text was invalid. Most do not treat the Bible as an exact historical text.
I suspect that David did exist (I do not care if he was actually called "David", or exactly where he came from or exactly when. However, he was probably a real person.
In defence of the programme, it did give some, minimal air to the idea that David as described, warts and all, is just too detailed for a mythical figure.
I am currently watching the 2nd episode, where she is stretching some very tenuous links.
The obvious extension will be the lack of archaeological evidence for the existence of Jesus.
Just finished watching the first two episodes and I'm utterly gobsmacked; how this woman can call herself a scholar is beyond me.
there were so many inconsistencies, so much bias and arbitrary dismissal of contrary evidence to her agrument that I don't know where to start.
Utter tripe. I won't be watching the remainder of the series - I've far better and more productive things to do with my time.
A very poor series with terrible bias and poorly researched and presented. Typical fascist left propaganda. Dissapointing.
"At one point she even said that Jewish or Christian archaeologists dig "with a trowel in one hand and a Bible in the other"!" - from the rant on this blog
"I work with the Bible in one hand and the tools of excavation in the other. The Bible is the most important historical source."
- Eilat Mazar, Israeli archaeologist, Jerusalem Post, 30 September 2008
Try opening your other eye before you type blogs full of ranting nonsense, mate!
@ Deane
There is nothing wrong with using the Bible as a text from which one might gain the knowledge needed to conduct archaeological digs around modern-day Israel. In fact, it is the only historical source most archaeologists can rely on, or use either to try and prove or disprove whether or not an event from Jewish history has some basis in fact. One could argue, therefore, that Stavrakopoulou herself uses a trowel in one hand and a Bible in the other, she is a Biblical scholar after all - its not as if she has an interest in Jewish history outside the Biblical narrative.
It could be said that the ancient city of Troy (though still disputed) would not have been discovered by the German archaeologist, Heinrich Schliemann, were it not for that fact that he had a trowel in one hand and Homer's Iliad in the other!
Stavrakopoulou's comments, though, about "Christians and Jews" digging with a trowel and a Bible seemed to imply that these two peoples suffered from a lack of objectivity or ability to detach from their faith or religious convictions. Not only is this a slur against all the Biblical scholars who have a religious faith - especially Jews and Christians, whom she picked out for special consideration; but it also makes a joke of the whole notion of Biblical archaeology (which she seemes in favour of) - as there'd be no such thing if archaeologists did not dig with reference to the Biblical texts!
Eliat Mazar was probably referring to the fact that he is a Biblical archaeologist - and would therefore need to consult the Bible, for obvious reasons. If he wasn't, then that's his own prerogative. It's not up to me to interpret the words of someone which might have been taken out of context. Stavrakopoulou, though, was implying that all Christians and all Jews were incapable of digging a Biblical site without somehow being bound by a text they viewed as infallible (even though most Christians and Jews do not have such a simplistic understanding of Scripture - unlike Muslim attitudes towards the Koran). To band a whole people of faith (two faiths) together in such a negative way, especially without any real evidence, is tantamount to being prejudiced. It is also very bizarre for someone who doubtless works with theologians and other Biblical scholars to think that Christians and Jews who happen to be academics cannot approach a subject critically. Many would point out that it is also unfortunate that she made no mention of the fact that other types of people, including atheists and Muslims, can be uncritical of their favoured texts - sometimes being dependent upon them whilst supposedly carrying out objective research.
The BBC and Exeter university should be asking themselves hard questions about this program. Claiming the ideas in this program as revolutionary, relevant to current politics or implying that they were revealing some great hidden truth - when these ideas are in fact widely debated - seems remarkable. Whether Dr Stavrakopoulou was stitched up by the BBC or vice versa is hard to tell. The shame is these are fascinating subjects and their presentation in an objective modest academic fashion would have made for great TV.
ad hominem attacks and poorly structured rants do not lend weight to your argument. why can't religious people respond to logical argument with a logic response? because they know that faced with logic, their belief in God would fall down. So instead of engaging with debate, they hide behind rhetoric and polemic. Humanity is finally learning to be free of the demented rants of the pulpit, thankfully.
@ tom
Thanks for your informative comment. I guess the irony of your "rant" will be lost on you.
"because they know that faced with logic, their belief in God would fall down." You obviously don't know much about logic or belief in God. Your prejudices merely confirm my argument about the presenter of The Bible's Buried Secrets. She, too, has an arrogant assumption that people of faith are somehow fundamentally flawed - and therefore unable to contribute to any debate. Faced with the logical arguments of those who know more about the subject than she herself does, she chose to "pick" on members of the lunatic fringe - not enter into proper discussion with the numerous Biblical scholars who are Jewish or Christian, yet have far more startling revelations about the Bible than she does.
Maybe you should read Joseph Ratzinger's (Pope Benedict XVI) books on Jesus of Nazareth (the second has just been published). You'll notice that he - like most Christians - has no problem with Biblical scholarship and the so called challenges it brings. It was his fellow German Christians who first pointed out the anomalies in the Bible and researched the sources the archaeological background. Stavrakopoulou had nothing new to offer - she merely presented very old theories as if they were somehow hers, or very new. Maybe, as an atheist, she had no idea that the very men and women who first came up with these arguments were actually Christian.
I marvel at your energies and passion to comment. I personally like to hear peoples views on things and found the programmes a good vehicle for that. But I also think and don't draw immediate conclusions or believe just because someone says something.
In this day and age of mass multi media communications, why don't we here anything directly from any heavenly beings?
Regarding the 'Creation vs Evolution' debate which always seems (in my opinion) to coincide with 'Science vs Religion', I have often queried that if Adam and Eve were the only human beings not be 'procreated' and all humanity stems from then, I believe that they are evidence of evolution. For example, my parents and grandparents were all caucasian, as were their parents and grandparent. What are the chances of me (a white irishman) and a young woman of similar lineage producing a baby with dark skin, tight black curly hair and flared nostrils?
It's an extreme example but the point is, if we all came from the same starting point it should be possible in theory but in reality it is so far back in my genetic makeup by several thousands of years as to be virtually impossible.
That, to me, is an example of Evolution, whether you believe God started the chain of events or we evolved from Apes. It's the same principle....
Incidentally, I am not trying put my views as actual fact, these are just opinions I have and have tried to back them up with evidence I could see. I welcome any feedback on it.
While surfing the web about this programme I have come across your article. It reflects many of the criticisms I have, as a Jew, of it as well and I’m pleased to see that Christian scholars also see the same issues.
As this article points out, I did find it funny that she mentioned ‘hidden’ and ‘secret’ a lot, especially when none of what she identifies is secret or hidden to those who study the bible. It’s only ‘revolutionary’, if you didn’t know about it in the first place and a TV archeologist tells you. It’s not ‘common knowledge’ because the general public don’t study the Bible.
I would like to add that I thought the good doctor had one other bias. That was the bible was misogynistic. Her feminist viewpoint repeated stated the bible ‘oppressed’ women and then gave a archeological justification (e.g. No female side to a single male God, Eve being the temptress) for it.
If we're all descended from Adam & Eve we'd all look as though we came from Norfolk.
Thanks for these comments,I watched the programm just as accident.. I know bible only through my socila education and TV serise in India..not being a christian or muslim ..I could not accuratly evalute what she was saying but It clearly showed to me that she has a bias..and thats why i googled to see what others are thinking.. many of you and the blogger reflect my views (sorry I dont have much insight)
The Garden of Eden has been found in the Rachaiya Basin, Southern Lebanon by exploration geologist and multi disciplined researcher Christian O'Brien CBE, who recorded the facts on this discovery in his book, co-authored with his wife Barbara Joy, the Genius of the Few in 1984.
Up to date translations of Genesis, the Books of Enoch and the crucial Kharsag cuneiform records from the Nippur library, re-write our secular history without religious bias.
A raft of supporting evidence is available, which features this site as the source of the domestication of animals and crops (plus technology) from 9,400 BC, at the start of the Holocene warming, following the Great Younger Dryas cataclysm generated ice age. Together with site survey records, photographs, and a video presentation, much more is available on the Golden Age Project website.
An, the leader of the small advanced group who re-started agriculture and civilised living following this global catastrophe, was later deified as the earliest monotheistic God. Yahweh in fact translates as leader of this group, in Hebrew described as the Elohim. The Qur'an translates as the readings and recitations of An, although the contents were recorded some 9,800 years later.
An's daughter Ninkharsag was the governor of the research establishment based on irrigation agriculture, and later described as the Goddess of Irrigation (or Ceres). Her statue was the central feature in the 200 acre administrative centre of Mari (another name for Ninkharsag) on the Euphrates. On the documentary Dr Francesca came close to this important information and should have done her homework on this crucial subject, which identifies Ninkharsag, wife of Enlil, as the origin of the Mother Goddess, upon whom Ashera was much later based. Male and female leaders of communities were described as Yahweh and Ashera. Ashera could be wife or consort, and this formed the basis of the equal male and female administrative roles of Mayor and Mayoress, which still survives, but carrying the religious bias or dogma against the role of women.
Our first Laws were the Edicts of An and Enlil (El Shaddai or El Elyon) and our first Encyclopaedia of Astronomy was Enuma An and Enlil, factors which would have been well known and understood by Abraham of Ur.
Thank goodness I'm a Buddhist... this sort of theoretical wrangling puts me well off Christianity!
@ Anonymous (above)
"If Buddhism is attractive, it's only because it suggests that by belonging to it you can touch the infinite, and you can have joy without concrete religious obligations. It's spiritually self-indulgent eroticism." Joseph Card. Razinger (now Pope Benedict XVI).
Never have truer words been spoken about a movement that is now becoming increasingly fundamentalist, even to the point heinous persecution of Christians in places like Sri Lanka and Burma.
I watched these progammes and I did stick it out to view all 3 hoping to see some archeological evidence of the bible subjects covered. It was so disappointing. Dr Stavrakopoulou didn't present one reasoned argument, she disagreed with everyone she spoke with without backing up her statements except with flippant dramatic statements about rocking Christian/Jewish beliefs. On a totally flippant point, surely she could have changed her clothes a little more often in that hot climate!!
I find that many of the Christians I know seem happy to accept the Bible at face value and have not questioned the contents or the origins of the stories very much. Astonishingly, I am referring to well educated people. I think this programme is useful if it makes people like that sit up and take notice of the fact that the Bible is an assortment of stories put together a very long time ago and which have, for various reasons, usually concerned with power and wealth, been interpreted deliberately in a certain way.
I noticed Ms Stavrakopoulou's feminism coming through again in the third episode, about the Garden of Eden. Of course, she may just have a valid point......
I am fascinated by the allegations of a pro-Muslim agenda going on and will view any further programmes with a fresh eye.
It's just a TV show, not a transmission of a scientific project. It is therefore normal that the documentary has a certain Dan Brown-feeling. But has she said something fundamentally wrong? And most of her sentences begin with I believe. She just presents her own hypothesis. I also wonder how is it possible to achieve a doctorate at Oxford University if all your theories are outdated or inconsequent.
I also wanted to remark that what she had to say, maybe was not so topical for people with your knowledge but for a layman like myself, it was quite innovative and interesting. An astrophysicist will also not expect to learn something new by watching a TV-program.
I now know a new vision that is interesting but of little value. This person is indeed faced with some prejudices but isn´t this true for every scientist. Every scientist is a human being, in this case a female atheist. The biggest mistake she makes is to pretend there is only choice between her theory and that of narrow-minded clergy.
I would like to conclude by this interesting question: is a scientist (who is not a Christian / Jew) who produces findings that go against the Christian / Jewish teaching anti-Christian/Jewish? I think you only have to question if he is a good scientist. A historian friend was recently accused of anti-Semitism because he wrote things that were completely true, but not to the liking of a community. His intentions were, however, of purely academic nature.
I found out about this series recently and thought I'd do some digging before I saw it. I have not seen the episode, but as a Biblical scholar currently doing research in the holy land and a religious Jew I agree with much of your analysis. Especially concerning the blatant pro-Islamic bias that is evident throughout the BBC. I would not expect them to ever challenge the Quran to any external inquiry as we do the Bible, both out of liberalized sentiments and fear for their own lives were they to do so.
I have heard a great many of these arguments before from people who are completely unfamiliar with the texts and archeological digs involved. One of the best ways to find places to dig is by utilizing the Bible itself to give clues on locations and this has often been fruitful in locating settlements and especially valuble in the unearthing of the City of David.
The archeology itself can be read in several ways. If you want to say that the Kingdom of David/Solomon was large or small they are valid readings of what we currently have available to us. However to outright suggest that they didn't exist is similar to Biblical Minimalism in it's active blocking out of more recent evidence than the early 20th century had available to it when these kinds of theories started being formed.
I would also note that Webmaster Gareth's accusation that Israel perpetrates any active maltreatment of Palestinian Christians is simply blatantly false. The main enemy of the Palestinian Christians are Palestinian Muslims, and the main protectorate of the Palestinian Christians is the state of Israel itself. The rest of his statement would be better informed by reading the Bible's own views on the return of the Jews to Israel before the coming of the Messiah.
It is deplorable that the whole discussion here is fundamentally biased and the ridiculous discussions are based on absolutely outdated concepts and unsubstantiated scholarly findings. I would recommend to watch the old series "The Bible Unearthed" based on the findings of world renowned archaeologists, Israel Finckelstein is one of them, or at least read the reviews of their books if not the books themselves. I had a great laugh after reading all this NONSENSE!!!What a regression. Geflom
Mszzzzz Stavrakopoulou does seem to have a bit of a chip on ye olde shoulder - and her history is (ever so) slightly revisionist
Watching the "God's Wife" programme, I seem to remember that the polytheistic El had more than one consort - not just Asherah. And, we cannot even be sure that she was Number One Wife.
The assertion that "rabid monotheism" emerged from a background of polytheism during the Babylonian Captivity is also a bit tenuous.
In Exodus, Moses brought monotheism out of Egypt - long before the Captivity. The name Mosis means "son of" in ancient Egyptian - and Moses was brought up in Pharaoh's House. The primary example of early monotheism comes from Amenhotep IV - Akhenaten (the 18th Dynasty also being the time when prisoners of war were given by the king to their captors).
And, it would seem strange for a totally new religious paradigm to emerge independently in two separate places, given that polytheism continued to dominate the rest of region throughout the period.
I suspect Akhenaten's Aten-Cult monotheism came out of Egypt with the Exodus in the late 1300's BC - early 1200's BC. The Babylonian Captivity may have hardened it.
The origin of Original Sin is set out below by Christian O’Brien from his improved translations of the Book of Enoch in the Genius of the Few.
[SE XIX:l-S PP] After this, the men brought me to the sixth haven, and there I saw seven groups of Angels, very bright and wonderful, with their faces shining brighter than the Sun. They were brilliant, and all dressed alike and looked alike.
Some of these Angels study the movements of the Stars, the Sun and the Moon, and record the peaceful order of the World. Other Angels, there, undertake teaching and give instruction in clear and melodious voices. These are the Archangels, who are promoted over the ordinary Angels. They are responsible for recording (and studying) the fauna and the flora in both the Highlands and the Lowlands.
There are Angels who record the seasons and the years; others who study the rivers and the seas; others who study the fruits of the Lowlands, and the plants and herbs which give nourishment to men and beasts.
And there Angels study Mankind and record the behaviour of men, and how they live.
This record of the sixth place to which Enoch was taken within Eden is the fullest statement that we have, anywhere, of the actual daily activities of the Angels/Anannage in the Settlement of Eden/Kharsag. And the extraordinary conclusion, which we find that we cannot avoid, is that these activities appear to be compatible with the scientific interests of an exploration expedition into unknown country. Its members appear to have been studying every facet of science which such an expedition would require - from geology to botany, and from astronomy to anthropology.
The passage goes even further, and provides a rational explanation for the religious concept of the Recording Angel - and the writing down of the good, and bad, deeds of men. From this account, we can now understand that these angel investigators were only observing Mankind from anthropological, genetic and psychological viewpoints - they were not concerned with 'guilt' or 'original sin: which can now be seen as superimpositions by later, misunderstanding, religious interpreters.
Kramer may be right when he claims that 'History began at Sumer'. But Prehistory, and prehistorical science in particular, began at Kharsag in Eden - and for our knowledge of this, we can thank Enoch and the scribes of Sumer.
Dear reluctant sinner,
there are several things i would like to comment on in both your tirade against the program and the comments that have responded, but i shall limit myself to your incredibly narrow minded view of Buddhism, or rather, the pope's, as i cannot believe this has gone unchallenged.
that Buddhism 'suggests...you can have joy without concrete religious obligations.' is ridiculous. Buddhism, like any other religion, has a belief system that must be followed to achieve the end goal. if one is a strict buddhist then the restrictions they impose on themselves are numerous, including alcohol, sex, food types etc., and this can hardly be termed 'self indulgent.'
furthermore it holds that - in ways similarly to Christianity - that the mortal world is essentially a place of suffering that must be transcended, and it is the purpose of life to transcend the mortal world.
finally, you refer to the 'heinous persecution' of christians. Pot, I would like you to meet kettle. I assume you find him black? Christianity has been as responsible for mass genocide as any other organised religion. I am not a buddhist, but I found your remark most offensive, and your christian arrogance rather alarming.
you crackpot deity believing idiot!
"Stavrakopoulou never for a moment thought that Muslim or atheist scholars might have ulterior motives or agendas"
What motives do you think an atheist scholar might be pursuing? Atheists are interested in the truth, whether people want to hear it or not. I get the feeling the author of this review isn't a big fan of uncomfortable truths.
@ the two anonymous comments above
LOL!
Any self-respecting biblical scholar wouldn't have thought that the programme represented "the truth".
As for being uncomfortable about the truth - I am in love with the truth, which I why I bothered to write this review of a series of documentaries that seemed so biased and over the top as to ridicule academia and modern biblical scholarship.
I wish atheists would wake up the to irony that they are the ones with blinded eyes, who cast players into bizarre and prejudiced categories. Like the last commentator who assumed that atheists are explorers of the truth whilst those who have religious faith cannot engage with it. Most biblical scholars, who have faith, aren't like Muslim ones who just study the texts for their theological depth. Christian academics have been in the vanguard when it comes to de-constructing the Bible and raising the challenging questions about such things as authorship, dating, and historical inaccuracies, etc... None of those things, which many uneducated atheists would assume to be uncomfortable to a theist, are a challenge to my faith or uncomfortable.
The bizarre theories, that move on from conventional scholarship, presented in this series were more in line with conspiracy theories and the like. Some were just plain potty. Others seemed motivated by a bias against Jews and Christians and a typically "liberal" over-adulation of Muslims and atheists!
uncomfortable truths - don't make me laugh! LOL
I certainly agree that this programme wa a little dummed down, in fact I tihnk the bbc has recently adopted a dummed down style for several of it's recent documentary series. For example Brian Cox's last effort.
However, dubbed down or not I thought this Bible programme made some interesting points. I think what it might have being getting was that, people place a massive amount of trust in holy texts despite having little or no knowledge of their historical context or development.
It raised the point that the bible isn't a cohesive text depicting the story of a god and his people; it's more like a jumble of bronze age myths and ideas.
Having recently finished reading the bible i'm interested to find out more about the context of some of the books. I found Francesca's speculation on the true meaning of the Eden story fascinating, even if I didn't immediately agree with her argument.
I think the points raised about Yahweh's apparent roots in the Caanite pantheon were fairly interesting. If Yahweh is just another god, what validity does the bible actually have? So yeah, I think it's reasonable to classify God's dubious origins as an "uncomfortable truth" and a truth that would shake the faith of any reasonable Jew, Chrisitan or Muslim. But, I guess if you could reason with religious people, there probably wouldn't be religious people.
What do you even mean "I wish atheists would wake up to the irony"? I hope you're not trying to lump all atheists into one category. I woudln't dream of doing the same about religious people, they're all profoundly wrong in their own individual ways.
It's incredible that people can watch a programme like this; be presented with evidence that casts serious doubt on several aspects of their religion and shrug it off calling the theories "plain potty".
Faith is a process of non-thinking and i think this tv programme highlighted just how unwilling people can be to face facts.
@ above (part 1)
You said: "It's incredible that people can watch a programme like this; be presented with evidence that casts serious doubt on several aspects of their religion and shrug it off calling the theories "plain potty".
Faith is a process of non-thinking and i think this tv programme highlighted just how unwilling people can be to face facts."
I reiterate, quite strongly, that I am not some uneducated person in this field. In fact I spent 6 years of my life as quite a successful (and, dare I say, at the time "liberal" scholar). Nothing new was presented in the programme. In fact, most of the so-called challenging things were first proposed by Christian academics working in the 18th century! So, please don't think that the Bible's Buried Secrets presented anything new in terms of biblical scholarship. It didn't. Having said that, it was full of biased remarks about Christians and Jews, probably informed by the presenter's own atheism and the fact that her department is heavily financed by the Muslim Brotherhood!
Some of the things that came up in the series were, as far as many scholars would be concerned, quite potty. Her ideas about the role of Mary in Catholicism were so off the mark as to be laughable. The first programme, in that regard, although showing forth its prejudice, was quite normal. It just got more and more bizarre as it went along.
If you think that this programme "casts serious dibts on several aspects" of the Christian or Jewish religions, that I can only pity you. You obviously have no idea what the tenets of those religion are and how very, very committed the vast majority of Crhristian and Jewish scholars are to questioning their scriptures, and to use all the enlightened approaches of reason and all advancements in science to explore, confirm or deny the historicity and authority of biblical passages. We are the ones who work in this field! Ho can we be fundamentally challenged by it?
Part 2
It's like someone who had read Dawkins said to me, "you must read what he says about the Bible or philosophy, it's so shocking it'll make you an atheist." I read his work and only found A-Level type arguments and the so-called shocking revelation about the Bible were things that mainstream Christianity had dealt with centuries before. The Bible is not for us (expect those nutters on the evengelical wing of certain protestant sects - the ones Dawkins seem to think represent all people of faith) some blindly infallible document which covers matters of science or history as if it were a modern book written by Simon Schama or the like. It is a collection of ancient writings in which a message of love and the power of the human spirit and of faith is carried thoughout, in good days and bad, and irrespective of the fact that some pages and questions concerning authorship remain spurious.
The fact that you clearly misunderstand this just goes to show that the programme appealed to the religiously illiterate, conspiracy theorists, or people who truly believe that pretty dated scholarship is somehow being presented for the first time.
Faith (as in the Catholic faith) is most definitely not a process of non-thinking, as it promotes thinking more than anything. It is the hight of rationality and continues to argue for the truth even in cultures where truth is bend to fit social mores.
As someone who made an extensive study of the works of Wittgenstein (my favourite), Kant, Weil, Satre, Kirkegaard, and the like, and as someone rooted in the exiting world of science, and as someone with an IQ over 166 and who has dedicated his life to the things of reason and the mind... I can assure you that you seem more blinded by your arrogance than any theist would be by their faith.
I hope you find the truth - the one that will set you free.
Some Facts: -
Here are some facts relation to rational Catholics and what they gave the world (taken from an article in the Catholic Herald): -
Evolution: Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (d 1829), a French Catholic, developed the first theory of evolution, including the notion of the transmutation of species and a genealogical tree.
Genetics: The Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel (d 1884) founded the science of genetics based on the meticulous study of the inherited characteristics of some 29,000 pea plants.
Time: The Gregorian Calendar (1582), named after Pope Gregory, now used worldwide, is a fruit of work by Catholic astronomers, as is the development of astrophysics by the spectroscopy of Fr Angelo Secchi (d 1878)
Studies on the Cosmos: The Opus Maius (1267) of the Franciscan Roger Bacon (d 1292), written at the request of Pope Clement IV, largely initiated the tradition of optics in the Latin world. The first spectacles were invented in Italy around 1300, an application of lenses that developed later into telescopes and microscopes.
Important: While many people think of Galileo (d 1642) being persecuted, they tend to forget the peculiar circumstances of these events, or the fact that he died in his bed, as very devout Catholic, and his daughter became a nun.
University education: Perhaps the greatest single contribution to education to emerge from Catholic civilisation was the development of the university system. Early Catholic universities include Bologna (1088); Paris (c 1150); Oxford (1167, pictured); Salerno (1173); Vicenza (1204); Cambridge (1209); Salamanca (1218-1219); Padua (1222); Naples (1224) and Vercelli (1228). By the middle of the 15th-century (more than 70 years before the Reformation), there were over 50 universities in Europe.
I won't even bother with exploration, other fields of science, art and architecture, music, law and jurisprudence and the emancipation of women!
PS (above)
Physics: Most remarkably, the most important theory of modern cosmology, the Big Bang, was invented by a Catholic priest, Fr Georges Lemaître (d 1966), a historical fact that is almost never mentioned by the BBC or in popular science books!
Are you trying to tell me that there isn't a contradiction between science and faith?
Science is constructive doubt. You come up with a theory and try to prove it wrong.
Faith is suspension of critical faculties. An assertion is made without evidence and it's made infallible through institutionalisation and passage of time.
Don't try to tell people theists are doing or have done more for science than secular intellectuals; it's not true. There are countless examples of the church holding back scientific progress.
This programme is a symptom of the "new atheism" fronted by people like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. Atheism that isn't afraid to step on the toes of sensitive religious types.
I'm not trying to say you're uneducated or aynthing, you're clearly very on top of this kind of thing.
I'm not arrogant as an atheist. I don't pretend to have all the answers, of even any of the answers. That's the job of religion.
Yes, I am saying that there is no contradiction between science and religious faith. Neither scientists nor people of faith spend their time trying to prove / disprove the existence of God. Frindge lunatics might do.
The role of science is to explore and investigate the known material world, sometimes for its own good (to know truth) and other times for the benefit of mankind (technological and medical advancement, etc). Religion, on the other hand, seeks to connect to a deeper understanding of being human, and to communion with the Divine. A God that can only be known through revelation, not experiment or philosophy - but a revelation that is rational.
So science and religion are not competitors, even if atheists try and clai, science as their religion. Most scientists are religious. Their faith has little or no impact on their work, and their work has little impact on their faith.
Atheism is a faith. It is making a convinced claim regarding something unknowable. But, whereas most people of faith are quite honest about their doubts and see faith as a journey on which to explore the unknowable, atheists can be arrogant (like some people of faith - such as fundamentalists) in believing that their atheism is objective and beyond the realm of faith.
I have known several atheist scientists who have tried to use science to prove their theories right. An example would be a concerted attempt to prove there is a 'gay gene', etc.
I'm afrid your ideas about religion and science are typical of the new atheists, who tend to be blind followers of the flawed cults of men like Dawkins. These men establish fame and make money by creating false concepts regarding the nature and purpose of science and religion. They can then seem to successfully win an argument, as the terms of the debate and the question itself were artificially set by themselves. They either do this because their thinking is truncated or because they seek to manipulate. Let's just say, the same tactics are often used by cult leaders.
Unless atheists acknowledge that science is not their exclusive preserve and that atheism is a faith (although supposedly negative), then they must be seen as the arrogant fundamentalists that they are. And many should be weary of the ones, like Dawkins, who set themselves up as gurus or gods. The sad reality is, that in my experience, atheists will believe anything whilst blindly thinking they believe nothing!
I hope your heart and mind will be opened to the fullness of truth. It always sets us free!
Rational revelation? Really?
You say religion is
I don't think many atheists are actively trying to disprove God; attempting to prove a negative is a waste of time. The onus is on people of faith to prove their beliefs, not for rational people to disprove them.
I think most reasoned non-believers are just stating the obvious. Concepts like the existence of Gods, angels, personal immortality, inherent sin etc are absurd. So whilst in theory they are agonstic, the likelihood of receiveing convinicing evidence is so slim they do to describe themselves as atheists.
Doesn't worship distance us from humanity? Isn't it more likely that God; just like all other ancient deities, was created in our image? Not the other way around.
Without question there is a contradcition between science and faith. Faith is corosive to proper science and science understood properly is corosive to faith; for example look at evolution. A thorough understanding of Darwin's theroy doesn't sit well with any religion's creation story; however they attempt to fit into their god centered equation of the universe.
No one's heart and mind has ever been opened to the fullness of the truth. However, whilst science finding out what it can, religion is sitting back pretending it has the answers. You worship a god of the gaps, and the gaps in our knowledge are getting smaller.
And by the way, i'm not trying to say that religion isn't profound and beautiful in a lot of respects, because it is! It's just a that the insightful humanists bits of religion are often submerged in superstitious nonsense.
Maybe, like other western atheists, by faith you actually mean "protestantism"? Unfortunately, people have a very simplistic idea of faith and / or the questions that have risen over the centuries, thanks to scientific discoveries. As mentioned above, the devote Catholic, Lemarck, had proposed a theory of evolution well before Darwin. The Catholic Church has never had a problem with evolution, as she (like Judaism and Orthodoxy) has never had a literalist view of Scripture, and understands the theological (not scientific) value of ancient stories and myths...
Andway, better go, I'm just about to see Barack Obama, outside the gloriouslt beatiful Westminster Abbey (where Newton and Darwin are buried)! Lol.
lol - "God of the gaps", what a tired and nonsensical cliche that one is!
Please don't make yourself sound foolish by making assumptions about my theology.
Yes, well I hope your heart and mind will be opened to the fullness of truth as well haha
I have just watched these programmes after recording then some time ago. I was very interested to read your comments. One of the main weakness of the series was how Stavrakopoulou focussed on particular Bible passages to suit her argument. There was no consistency in what she said to backup what she was saying. It was academic fraud.
For example, the programme on the garden of Eden, she said that the Gihon was near Jersulem, completely ignoring the fact that Genesis states that is was between the Euphrates and Tigris and Pishon rivers. It is well known that the exact location of Gihon and Pishon is uncertain, so how on earth could the say with certainty that Eden was in Jerusalem, which is no where near the Euphrates or Tigris?! This completely undermined her credibility. Also, at the start she said that Eden was a real garden , then jumped to saying actually Eden was the temple, where nothing was grown. It was all very contrived and unconvincing.
To understand the Bible you have to know it all, you can't just pick and choose. The Bible is remarkably consistent in the way it references itself and this by people writing at different times and in different places.
One of the interesting things about the Bible is the way it gives specific details to so much of the narrative. This is a style of literature that was not seen until after Beowulf, when fiction writers started to add details to the stories to make them more convincing. The fact that the Bible does mention specific details, often surprising ones, lends greater credibility to what it says i.e. the details are not consciously put there to trick the reader into thinking it is true.
In your blog post you say that someone called Elhanan, not David, is credited with the slaying of Goliath in 2 Samuel 21:19. The passage actually says:
'Elhanan son of Jair the Bethlehemite killed the brother of Goliath the Gittite'
Many thanks for your stimulating blog post.
Dear Friend
What about the Crusades and forced conversion of Pagans all over the world? Pope Benedict really didnt understand Buddhism to begin with.. "you can have joy without concrete religious obligations.." Let me tell you this... it would be more difficult to be a Buddhist than a Christian when considering religious obligations. Even food matters to a Buddhist who a Vegetarian for life while Catholics cant even decide if you should eat meat on Fridays.I say this cause we know that in 1984 the rules were relaxed allowing Catholics to choose a different form of penance, such as offering up extra prayers or attending Mass. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8512721/Catholics-told-to-abstain-from-eating-meat-on-Fridays..html)
Anyways i dont want to hurt anyone as i myself (i was brought up a Christian) Believe in the Morality of Christ and i respect Non Extreme Christians all over the world who are tolerant and not ignorant of other religions and customs. But i really think that one should learn about something before criticising it.
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